i received the following email through my website, www.watchtowerdocuments.com.
how would you reply to his question?
(i'll send him the link to this thread containing your replies.).
jgnat said:
The mysogyny of the Witnesses and their indifference to anniversaries eventually killed the relationship.
And to tag on to that, make sure to research and point out the JWs rejection of all holidays, no saluting the flag, no serving in the military, anti-higher education (eg college), their "no blood transfusion" policy (even to the death, or if accepted, DFing), shunning of ex-members, etc.
jwfacts has an article that explains why the great crowd must be in heaven.
i am also aware that many of these are the same arguments that stemmed from the 'awakenings at bethel' so my statements are not simply attacks of jwfact's character (since these arguments are probably not original) but rather his copy and paste of what others have said instead of verifying it as 'fact' for himself.. so here are jwfacts arguments:.
1. he shows that russell and rutherford (at some point) believed that the great crowd were in heaven.. 2. each term that describes the great crowd of revelation 7 is else used to described the anointed by the wt.
Recovery said:
Oh yes. Whales evolved from squirrels and monkeys who then jumped into the ocean for some unknown reason and then developed into whales. And by the way your uncle is a monkey, literally.
Heh, and what were you saying about understanding arguments again?
You clearly are someone who dismiss all that you cannot (or refuse to) understand. Your dismissal doesn't make those fossils disappear for the rest of us....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_cetaceans
Here's one of God's creations that suggests he was working on the idea of your approach to logic before you came along to push the design to newer heights:
jwfacts has an article that explains why the great crowd must be in heaven.
i am also aware that many of these are the same arguments that stemmed from the 'awakenings at bethel' so my statements are not simply attacks of jwfact's character (since these arguments are probably not original) but rather his copy and paste of what others have said instead of verifying it as 'fact' for himself.. so here are jwfacts arguments:.
1. he shows that russell and rutherford (at some point) believed that the great crowd were in heaven.. 2. each term that describes the great crowd of revelation 7 is else used to described the anointed by the wt.
Recovery said:
Look at how ahead of its time and how scientifically accurate the creation account is, going in the same basic order as scientists say.
You're shittin' us, right? If by "basic" you actually mean "not at all alike", then sure, I'll agree....
I mean, you DO understand that the whole "separating light from the dark" that sounds really zen-like and mysterious, but is actually nonsense, utter gobbedly-gook? (we know light is composed of photons: dark is composed of.... Well, nothing. Dark is the an absense of photons. Darkness doesn't exist as a separate discrete element, as it was thought of in ancient times.)
But you said "creation", so here's only ONE example:
You DO understand that whales ( " God created the great sea monsters and every living creature that moves, with which the waters swarmed after their kind") were claimed to be created on the 5th day,and land animals are claimed to be created on the 6th day?
Problem: incontrovertible scientific evidence from fossils indicates that whales evolved from LAND mammals that returned to the sea.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/library/03/4/l_034_05.html
Only someone who is compleatly (sic) ignant (sic) of science would be able to make the statement you did above, while keeping a straight face.
i received the following email through my website, www.watchtowerdocuments.com.
how would you reply to his question?
(i'll send him the link to this thread containing your replies.).
King Sol, not true. Didn't happen in my daughters case once the boy returned, got his prevelges back, fooled around with my daughter, which they kept secret. Also, does't mean the kids are being honest. He is still in good standing. Kids can pretend they are just friends. I've been in congregations with a large teenage crowd, and teenagers are shady and very good at it, JW or not.
Yeah, and that's exactly why I phrased it like I did, placing the onus on the individual to be honest and upright (and why I said "no active diligent JW"). That assumes he's actually "walking the walk" of being a sincere JW, and not a "jack JW" who's able to lie to themselves and others to keep out of trouble.
But like I said, the guy's motivations are doubtful from the start, since he's dating a "Worldly"; maybe he is legitly questioning JWs, maybe he's not; but it's impossible to know (especially if the guy himself doesn't know).
Of course, that's a risky strategy for him, as it often back-fires when they lose their "guardian angel" elder(s) who look the other way for youthful indiscretions that others get DFed for. Some pull it off, but like I said, it's riskier than simply marrying a sister after holding hands on dates, etc.
But bottom line is we're all guessing here, since we don't know any more than what was provided in an e-mail. It's all to be taken with a BIG grain of salt, since it's all conjecture.... No need to bother claim knowing the "truth" on this one, as it's all just offered as food for thought.
the "perfect storm" built up to an epic verbal battle between me and my jw hubby.
there's nothing like a pitched battle to bring out my best zingers so i thought i would share some of them here.
by the way, hubby and are fine.
Yup, hate to stereotype, but you've met one hardcore JW and you've met them all. The name may change, but the song remains the same....
Interesting to see my brother (who's an elder) occasionally get short with his wife (a hardcore JW pioneer) at times, when she shows a complete lack of social awareness of her surroundings and launches into the same platitudes, regardless of their applicability to the given situation. So it seems they want SOME awareness, but want to tightly define the limits.
BTW, jgnat, I'm surprised you see it so easily in your hubbie, but don't even see just a teensie-weensie bit of that same kind of wishful thinking in yourself, by wanting to create God in our image, and not vice-versa?
i received the following email through my website, www.watchtowerdocuments.com.
how would you reply to his question?
(i'll send him the link to this thread containing your replies.).
Well, his earlier claim of losing his faith does ring true, as no active diligent JW would ever consider dating outside of the JWs; their relationship would place him at great risk of being punished for it, if it were to come to light (depending on whether he's baptized).
So the concern of your daughter being brain-washed, with him as the "lure", doesn't seem likely. While that's a MO of some cults, I've never heard of that as being part of JW recruiting methods. They should date only with the goal of marriage, and they marry insiders, only, or risk serious repercussions.
However, it still doesn't address whatever issues she may be going through with her family ("strong church of England"); 19 is the age when most young adults start making their own way in life, including separation from the parents. She's likely feeling her way through the same issue of figuring out her own beliefs, and they share the same struggle of breaking free from the desires of the family, including the family religion. It's hard for JW youth, as it must be for her....
some have figured out, but i am a poster that previously used another name.
but even then i did not give many details about myself.
i barely cracked 100 posts.. but i have never done a thread to explain why i am here.
NC said:
"The fact is that all people will experience happiness to varying degrees in different contexts. We can not come along and tell someone what they feel is not real---if you feel it, it is real."
I'd agree, as long as we remember that it's an emotion, and is "real" as an experience: it doesn't mean that the emotion is warranted, or cannot be changed by altering one's perspective with more information.
I'm reminded of the words of Eleanor Roosevelt:
"No one can make you feel inferior without you giving them the permission to do so."
today if someone claims to be the son of god, we naturally think he has some type of mental problem, and in some cases like charley manson, jim jones, and other too numerous to give a list here,, they get a groups of followers which share the same delusion,sometimes bringing tragic results.. the governing body delusion of being the spokeman for jehovah, has also resulted in a big number deaths.. so what about jesus christ?
was he delusional?.
take a read of this:.
She thinks she's a reptile? Wow, I only watched a bit of the video, and must've missed THAT part!
Really though, I was trying to suggest that she's seemingly spent a bit of time studying scriptures in order to come up with her cockamaimie stuff, and some people have brain circuitry that apparently makes it harder for them to separate their fantasies from reality. That must be horrible, not being able to discriminate amongst ones ideas/beliefs (and isn't that what childhood is, a time when we still believe in boogeymen and fairy tales as we are able to suspend our disbelief)? It's sad that religion seemingly only encourages blurring that line, and has done so for quite sometime (at least, ever since a relationship with a personal God was democratized and given to the masses, and taken from the exclusive domain of the Pharoahs).
i know 99% of the posts here are for exposing wt doctrines and fallacies ,but there was a time that we really believed that we had full bible understanting .i know now that this is the case ,but why can't we use that as a starting point rather than the end of the road ?
why can't we be more like the jews of john the baptist's day that acknoledged their errors and started over again by whiping the slater clean and getting baptised in expectation of the messiah's coming ?.
Sulla said:
beat this theme to death, I guess. But it is still surprising how many people -- whose lives were defined for years by JW-ism -- never bothered to understand any of the key teachings of orthodox Christianity, when those teachings were what they had spent years attacking as JWs.
Why bother with learning details of various permutations of theology, once you realize that the source upon which ALL Abrahamic theologies are based is false?
If a lot of peanut butter is recalled due to fears of salmonella contamination, do you recall just the jars of peanut butter, or any other products which may have used the same possibly-tainted peanut butter? It doesn't matter if you use peanut butter in a new recipe; it still relies on tainted peanut butter.
The JWs are wrong in what they affirm, but also wrong in what they deny.
Ah, the irony of rejecting them for small differences in theology, when the commonality is tainted peanut butter.
today if someone claims to be the son of god, we naturally think he has some type of mental problem, and in some cases like charley manson, jim jones, and other too numerous to give a list here,, they get a groups of followers which share the same delusion,sometimes bringing tragic results.. the governing body delusion of being the spokeman for jehovah, has also resulted in a big number deaths.. so what about jesus christ?
was he delusional?.
take a read of this:.
Leo, that young lady is slightly disturbing to watch, but hardly uncommon: I see someone who's trying to resolve the contradictory characteristics of God as depicted in the Bible, and is conflicted by being trapped in a situation that is not of their own making, but one she accepts by accepting 1000's of years of tradition as proof. It is amazing to see the mental gymnastics people will engage in, to come to terms with all of it. Some people believe it so much they assume a role in the story, personalizing it, and are actually encouraged to engage in a personal relationship with God and Christ. THAT'S what results when people do.
I imagine you can relate (from what I remember of your teenaged attempts to refute evolution, etc), before you dug into the historical roots of the Bible to reach the conclusions you did.
